My good and hard-working friend Rick Barrett analyzes his most recent impossible situation, looking for clues. We got a call from a designer in Portland who designed this most interesting water feature from the comfort of her drawing board. While we agreed it would be a beautiful edifice, we also wondered just how we’d pull it off. The notion of hanging the deep black slate, composed of various thicknesses but the same color, off a block cement wall posed some bizarre and – to us – new material. It would have to be cement, owing to the varied thicknesses of the slate. All sort of adhesives could do the job, but the thickness thing hung us up. We needed a material which would allow us some “squeeze room” in order to have the absolutely perfect outer dimensions to align. Anything other than perfection – with water flowing over it – would show up like crazy.  And this referred not only to the top lip, where it would be grievous if not straight, but the front and sides as well.

Of course, I neglected to mention that the plan also called for adding real rocks at the front and a corner of both levels of the falls system, making the cement idea even more emphatically needed.

(click on any image to enlarge)

So we arrived at a conclusion – erect the walls first, then nail burlap to the block walls, which would give the cement something to grab onto. It would also allow us just enough “wiggle room” to align all the slabs of slate so that they matched at every possible angle. Now, inasmuch as we are working with a natural stone product, total perfection would be absurd, layered and split as they are. But I believe Rick  got very, very close.

He’s a working dude!

I missed many episodes, picture-wise, as the construction proceeded, which I now regret. Often, we were busy elsewhere from the rear of the home, working on the landscaping out front or one the sides, which involved irrigation and the construction of some garden carpentry projects.  Rick did almost every bit of the water feature by himself. He also – it bears mentioning – erected the stone walls. I thought his work was masterful and so did the client and even the designer.

The blue tarp, for the record, was not only handy for preventing the brick walls from getting splashed with wet cement or from the splatter from the debris of brick and stone-cutting, but it also doubled as a “rain roof”, keeping the guys and the stuff dry.

Generally speaking, here it is on the day we pretty much left, all done up and proper.

Quite a change from the first shots…………..note the stones – and not only the Basalt Chrystal cemented around using that “exposed aggregate” concrete finish. Note as well the insertion of natural stones by the bottom basin as well, sort of stuck into the patio floor finish. It added a natural touch. The patio is also cantilevered over the water, allowing us to hide the water pump which sits in the bottom basin. There is far more to this project than meets the eye, I guess is what I am saying.

A bit longer view -

Now closer -

With some cool garden carpentry in the form of these trellises.

This was an interesting project, also.

1. Rounded River Rocks, smoothed by tumbling under glaciation and running water

2. Fractured basalt rocks, into which I include “Glacial Schist” – also included in the Basalt rock  column would be the pillars and crystalline rocks of basalt origin

3. Igneous rocks of particular individual merit……….and I guess I could include Fossilized Rock – ‘petrified wood’ – as well, since I have actually used it in landscapes.

River/Glacial Boulders

I find these multi-utility rocks. They come in large numbers, very naturally. Aside from how we view the West, it was real wet at one time, with glaciers advancing and retreating, big boulders and small ones tumbling under mile-thick coverings of ice. As well, many rocks sat under water and the incessant pounding of running water rounded them off into interesting and sometimes literally circular shapes.

In landscaping, I like using these for water features (insert “duh!”), owing to the natural affinity with water in all its guises. I use them also for constructing artificial creek beds which double for a site as drainage trenches, moving rainfall and snow melt off the property and directing it where we want it to go. These are a delight to construct:

We assume the most natural effects in making these. Notably, for example, water will encounter an obstacle – such as a large rock – and find a way around it, thus the curving parts of my artificial creeks have larger boulders at junctures where the bends take place. We also try and find what would be a natural course, including its origins. When things make sense, the senses agree.

As can be seen above, I also use these to solidify a hillside as well. Inserting boulders does indeed help with erosion control, sitting all hefty and attractive, they supply ideal locations for planting as well as for diverting tides of water.

The picture below has a bunch of grouped boulders “Keyed” to prevent an erosive collapse onto what will eventually become an expensive and very long concrete driveway. They retain a secure place, especially when we add channels to it which will direct the water away. Nevertheless, this being such entirely new, basically ’sculpted’ and not very compacted terrain,  and composed of soft, dusty, silty material, we did what we could to avoid future problems. It turned out, the first year, we were glad we did.

And we play, too, attempting to make remarkable pieces of art out of our soil and rock sculptures. For example, on this same property, we made sets of stairs out of large, up to one ton boulders, in two different locations. These stairs are not for everyday traffic but they were still functional, keeping one’s shoes out of the dirt and garden – the intent of any garden pathway.

The steps are on the right in this picture. If you enlarge it, you can far more detail and I am really not all that at editing pictures to show the features I want most to focus on. I just take them.

The above picture is taken at the bottom level, just as Spring had arrived and in time for us to address the disasters which a 100 year rain event had caused. We were more than a little glad we had taken what steps we did take to minimize erosion damage. It could have been worse. This project was about 6 months old at this time – in construction terms, from when we began.

This is another level up, between the home itself and a huge garage where garden tools and an RV shed are located. The stairs here are obviously on the right.

Other functional and very playful uses of these rocks carry a softening effect to hard surfaces -

The intrude into the lines we devise, offering a small anarchy

But my single most primary usages of these gorgeously-shaped stones is generally related to their natural affinity with water.

Don’t do these at home!!

That’s the most important thing. I have to admit to overusing my own resources which see me doing automated and machine-driven work instead of old-fashioned pick and shovel stuff. For me, the excuse to use a machine always wins the race of fun things to do. (There IS that!)  And, yes, I would far rather dig a hole and place a rock using modern technology than by honest shoveling. Let’s just say I have seen both sides of the issue and have drawn a conclusion. It’s a fault!

Here, for example, is a perfect example of that very thing!

(click to enlarge all images)

We were tasked to create a small bubble rock water feature at my softball and business partner Bill Hermant’s house in Reno. Actually, I am positive it was his wife LaDonna’s idea, but Bill was warming to landscaping around this time and it might just have been something he wanted. A mystery, fer sure, but she sure wasn’t crying about it!

Anyway, we were using these machines at another project and it was a quick trip down to his place – which was in the neighborhood – so we “reallocated” our machines down to Bill’s place. The portable nature of even the mini-excavator made this all a half-day enterprise, the fact is. So, I dug – for 15 minutes. As The McKenzie Brothers would say, the “Beauty Part” was in how the little mini-ex grabs dirt and then drops it into this other machine – the awaiting Bobcat – which then runs the excavated dirt to wherever Kenny was taking it. For sheer automation, this is a formula from Heaven.

Does anyone else think that’s a great hole? I do. That’s a good hole. Moving along, we add liner, and some additional “protection (additional layers) where the big old rock will sit -

The rock was purchased locally and we had it bored by the firm who supplied it at $50.00 a “bored” foot. Here it sits in the rear of the truck, a chain stuck through the hole and ready to lift – gingerly – out.- It weighs about 600 pounds so, as I have made clear, allowing the machine take the lifting place of a few guys fumbling around with this sort of weight is  – still – the height of wisdom. The number of disasters, from ailing backs, skinned knees, penetrating the liner inadvertently, clothes losses and banging up against a house are pretty long.

We do so, preparing for the insertion into our great cool hole -

We set it down, then re-grab the thing, so that we have the incline and the angle of approach set well enough from above to insure we set it with a minimal need for reorienting inside the hole. At this stage, someone will be setting either bricks or other smaller rocks in place to rest this big guy on top of. At that time, we will run piping, being careful to keep it from pinching off the stream. Then we will cement it in place -

I got a bit carried away doing the plumbing, cementing, lifting, orienting and mixing it up down inside the hole and did not get many pictures of the process at this point. However, the picture below should give a great view of what it looked like down there during the process of plumbing and cementing. Yes, there are two pumps in this picture. The one we are most interested in for purposes of this post is the small black one on the right. Note also the clear and flexible plastic tubing which conducts water up through the pipe to the top of the silicone-grouted top. It connects to the little pump, but in the case of Bill’s place, it gets itself a bit detoured so we can install a control mechanism for adjusting the amount and rate of flow by hand, then returns on down to go up the big ole rock.

Note also the rock in question standing on its own. This is the set-up when cemented into place.

This was actually a pretty quick project. We cemented everything into place, then returned the machinery back to the other project where we finished the day. Then, the next morning, we dropped by Bill’s, ran the pump, got satisfied, then re-filled the hole with river rocks and an attractive top and finished her up by pretty much break time.

Here is the final product – a nice gurgle at the front entryway which always attracts a small crowd who love the sound and the effect.

Inasmuch as we specailize in water features of all types, I will make some general comments here, then break them down into categories in future posts. But first, let’s take a stroll and see what it is about waterfalls that so catches our fancy:

(these are made to view enlarged – left click to do so, maybe even twice, for more detail)

Nature gives us these incredible sights which focus the senses, get us wet and still just fill us up with wonder.

We see Chaos and Order at once in the most raw natural waterfalls, as if Nature Herself made a miscalculation and She wants to remind us of the sheer destructive and awesome power of water itself. The sheer volume of noise alone makes you need to shout to be heard and silences even the busiest mouth (Quite a handy Nature Trip for some who will remain nameless ):

We look over the top of these – at our most curious – and we see why they exist and how unassuming they seem, wandering their way to such a ‘falling’ pass – then becoming something else entirely besides “just some swollen creek”.

Getting closer quiets the mind and reveals more – and we love it, wanting that at “our place!”

This one could be rough to imitate, in the end. This one you can walk under – (It’s Silver Falls in Oregon.)

There is truly nothing like the sound and motion of water in a landscape. Absolutely nothing outside of earthquakes and volcanos. Nature makes a scene with all those rushing and deafening roars or even its smaller lush and strangely full-throated gurgling sounds. Those of brooks or even the larger cascading monsters are all possible to reenact in a landscape, right out one’s own door. Well – that is, to a degree. In terms of sizes, we can manually construct some wild stuff, especially these days with the advent of all the tricky machinery at hand not only used for the construction itself but also for the amazingly efficient and long-lasting pumps we can produce to motor that water over an edge.  Here is a diesel-powered waterfall I once worked on:

And here is a City Scape – (same theme, water, water, water and lots of it, running fast!) – this is Ira Keller Falls in Portland, Oregon, with a skinny-dipping bloke, waiting for his opportunity. I can’t take this guy anywhere, I swear:

But, frankly, the chances are great we will end up settling for less at home. This, of course, is just a guess

More manageable, not quite so deafening, we opt for the same wonder, just on a different scale. Yes, we do Formal as well as Natural:

More natural:

The process is actually rather simple, in a way, with some decided conundrums, but many folks have done their own water features and of course landscapes quite admirably and successfully. Indeed, for those who are inclined, some of the very best water features I have ever seen are those of “puttering” homeowners.
Like all landscaping projects, constructing a waterfall system, no matter of what ilk, whether formal or natural, requires intensive labor. Excavations are required, rocks and liners placed, cement work, electrical puzzles need fixing as well as the many and varied engineering problems which have to be borne in mind, including settling of soils after excavation and the new weight of water itself.
Professionals who specialize in such constructions know most of these various items to watchful of.  Splash loss, for example, the subsequent water replacement, their times and duration. Indeed, even the replacement system iself, are huge issues unless one wants to consider manually filling his water with a garden hose daily in Summer when evaporation is such an issue.
In short, don’t let me misstate things – water features are fairly complex. They possess many puzzles, some which only appear later for the unwary. It must be said too – Add that they are costly. An installation of a water feature is a “marriage”, of sorts with the constructor. One wants to know those who constructed it and who are now most familiar with its installation will be around in later seasons to help guide the homeowner in the proper direction for maintenance issues. Having said this, a curious client and student can teach himself darn near all he needs to know. It isn’t rocket surgery, after all.

This is the front yard of the project in question. Those exceptionally healthy-looking Ponderosa Pines tell us we are quite a bit above Reno, Nevada. In fact, it is well on the route to Lake Tahoe via the highway which tops the hill about 15 miles later at 9,900 feet above sea level.

This clients were an older couple who were based both in San Diego and Reno. The man of the house had an extremely active interest in the landscape. He also had his “wish list” of items – he wanted a nice, roaring water feature off his back deck, a walkway bisecting the back yard with turnabouts/patios at each end and – he was adamant – a vineyard. He also wanted a gas-fed fire pit in one of the patios. The goal was to “complete” the total yard. Our interest therefore was pretty much completely out back where he often entertained and sat and considered ponderous thoughts like “Will Steve drink another wine?”   Great guy, generous but really involved. Anyway, so we went to work. We paved our way to the back yard with an access road and carried all you see 100′ to the “back 20″.

Pictures of this project pick up from the point of construction of the waterfall set at the back of his thin but 150 feet wide back yard. The falls sets up the running water in the creek and it is a rambunctious one, running a good rate of water with some serious sound qualities. From the raised deck above, I rate the sound factor as a home run. It is throaty and deep, but not overwhelming so no one has to raise a voice to be heard. I sort of regret not taking earlier pictures, but it should be fairly obvious that we did our typical build. Liner underneath and rocks placed to give as naturalistic a picture as possible. I also wanted the river course itself to be deep, so I excavated more than usual. I was interested in hiding underwater lighting under the water at various points and the raised level of observation would compromise that. It made for an interesting depth which somehow seemed more real than many others, as if formed from a true chasm.

Work also proceeded at other locations while we constructed the falls and creek.

As is obvious, it began getting cold. We were on the verge of Winter when we got underway and it did not disappoint. Just the same, planting in these conditions is still fine. At the very end is our “vineyard”. It also shows an antique wagon tucked in behind that we picked up at some second hand dealer and carted back to the job site on a trailer. It was pricey but it was effective. It gave an Old West sort of ambiance to the overall project which we later exploited with a wagon wheel or two in the landscape. The grape plants, by the way, grew from the day we put them in. Grapes really do have a remarkable growth rate when happy and – the fact is – they get happy in some pretty bad soils. Grapes are a landscaper’s friend, in my opinion. That is a reliable plant. These were green grapes, climatically suited for the Reno alkaline soils as well as the hard-freezing climate conditions. They simply thrived here. There was a monster crop at the end of the first year.

Here’s a late season look at the vineyard and the wagon on a dark November day as we hustle to try and get the stamped concrete walk in place. The flags and paint represent the excavations to come.

We begin excavating and calling for cement. It takes a couple of days to get everything set up just right. The excavated material, by the way, will be used to set a bearm to the creekward side of the walkway-to-be.

We got blessed by great and surprising amounts of sunshine for the period of the project and there were smiles all around. I remember worrying about some weather front which missed us. The set up took an extra day. There’s more work here than it appears!

Finally, we got it poured and our walkway was now completed.

We re-graded and smoothed out the bearms and planted some more plants, but we basically took off for the Winter after most of this. The next time we came back was about 3 months later.

Here’s a shot of one of the wagon wheels along with a wide angle look at the creek and the final basin (where the pump is) itself:

However, we did get a marvelously sunny day to get some pics before leaving.

When Spring rolled around, we were suddenly able to finish things. We had grass to lay, mulch to put in, more lighting to tweak, fertilizing on the mind, salvaging a couple of Winter-damaged plants – the usual Springtime stuff. We put in the grass in short order:

Things were very much taking shape now. We were on a definite finishing roll.

My buddy and work mate Raoul and I stand somewhat triumphantly over our “slain dragon”. This is the finished look at the source of the creek and the noise.

Another shot and one I feature in this blog a few other places. It’s a particular favorite because I think it reflects my sensibility about the “depth issue” of the creek as a slow moving but still-substantial artifice, as natural as we could make it. Yup, that is another wagon wheel!

A look at the Main Patio, at the opposite end of the property from the vineyard and wagon. This one has that gas-fed fire pit in the center, yet still has room for tables and chairs. Yes, I had some fun with the boulders, as usual. The “cut” between the boulders in the distance essentially drains the property in the event of overdoes of precipitation. It has a small rock creek dry bed of some real gorgeous river rocks. Plus, it works!

This was a design and build home run, one of my favorite ever projects. Not only were the people great but they allowed some license and were proud of the overall accomplishment. They also had a stash of incredibly good wine. Oh wait – I said that.

Anyway, here’s what it looked like in Autumn – and, yes, we did plant for it. Thise spectacular maples are by design. Down at the end are the grapes after one year. What’d I tell you?

I will absolutely not name names in my blog, other than referring to conversations of a casual or humorous nature. But I can tell of stories where people were strikingly miserable who were wealthy into the hundreds of millions and even billions. They’re people too! They need landscaping and all that stuff. Let’s just say – on a personal level – in many cases people get predictably suspicious of others when they have a lot. There is something to the adage that plenty yields some paranoia. Sometimes, a whole dam lot of it. In some cases, it becomes a threat to your own security. The rich play by their own sets of rules. In fact, many is the time that they make them up!

Anyway, rather than continue this line, knowing nothing we can say will change things that much, just know that merely working for impressive people with “beyond-impressive” homes is not some automatic entree to becoming rich one’s self. You can also go broke working for them – and almost just as easy. Sometimes – through no real fault of your own.

Here’s the third most expensive home in the US: (weighing in at a mere $100 million)

Here’s the pool! That’s marble, by the way.

Now, I admit, that was something of a freak show. In one case, it may well have been the most nervous time I ever spent landscaping. We literally had to transport ourselves in a huge excavator, complete with about an 8 ton boulder in our grasp, for placing in a water feature I regret to say I have no pictures of. The slightest rock or article in the way as we crept inside could have tipped the machine enough to scar the walls – or worse, of course – of the granite facing, there was that little tolerance. In fact, we graded and raked towards a perfect finish underneath, just so we could get that monster machine between the walls without incident. It was a white knuckle experience, right off the get go. In fact, as interesting as this project might seem to an outsider, it was a small version of Hell in many ways, there were so many eyes, including the owners – on us at all times. Nor did we last – lol, there were a total of 5 different companies who worked on the project, jettisoned one after another like players on a chessboard. Some projects are not worth the trouble, frankly. And that’s a tough lesson.

Now here’s a mere 17 million dollar home. Now we’re slumming!! Actually, this homeowner was in the dumps at various times for reasons which were his own, lol. I confess, I never really cared for the dude. He once referred to it as a “dump”. Go figure. Fortunately, we were contracted by the builder, rather than the owner, so we almost got paid completely! Oh – I almost forgot – it’s rare to get all your money with many of the more miserable of these types. What really makes that odd is the generation of higher prices to begin with for the proactive contractor, familiar with their ways. I once literally gave a rebate to a client in this category of wealth because he paid his bill in full. I’m not kidding, either. It may well have been the best few bucks I ever spent too. He sent more people my way than I had time to do.

So here’s what $450,000 worth of landscaping will get you: (bear in mind the more open areas were filled with perennial and annual plants and some very gorgeous lamps and lighting which were articles of beauty on their own at about $250 a piece, copper tulips, in fact, with blooms for lights, all multicolored. It is typical of this site that my pictures are made either during construction or soon – like real soon – after completion. We then move on.)

That waterfall there is a two part deal, branching out at the top and going in both directions. Here is the other side of it:

From the street, here is a longer range view:

Nor were these the only water features! We installed this one up by the front door.

It’s rather hard to make out owing to the fact that our drip irrigation  sprayers were on at the time. Those Aspens, by the way, were our additions. 30′ feet high, it was a mighty tight fit putting them in so close to the house. They each weighed a couple of tons and were placed by a monstrous hydraulic tree spade, along with some Noble and White Firs we placed at other locations nearby.

Anyway, here is what the little water feature looked like in process. From this:

To this, then the finished product above. What was funny was that we decided to toss this in as a “toss-in”:

It had one humongous rear patio of stamped concrete:

The stone work was a triumph, however. These walls really add to the overall ambiance terrifically:

The driveway was an interesting mix of brick pavers and stamped concrete.

I really enjoyed the brick work on this project. It worked out outstandingly. Note the Firs in the picture above. Those we also planted, same with the Aspens. Here is a look at the large trees we inserted before we worked on the pavers. One is before we finished the project and the other is after. Of perhaps even more interest is a look at the wild numbers of electrical wiring, pipes and the general traffic in underground services, shown only slightly in the picture just below. Wiring for lights was inserted at the same time as the irrigation piping, irrigation wiring, electrical for the pumps running the water feature (220V) and even power for the heat tape and security gate which goes under the brick driveway:

Stressful at times, yet often resulting in sublime satisfaction for purely selfish reasons as an artisan and tradesman, projects such as these are what we literally die for.

I have a few of these cataloged and I await some pictures from my brother which include other outrageous projects, all of which mixed pleasure and pain in ample amounts – and in every conceivable way.

As a devoted fan of water in gardens and cities, I find very few things to match its otherwise totally absorbing effect on the mind and soul, set as they are in such urban concentrations. There are few more jarring effects on one while patrolling city streets to match running across a small park devoted solely to some water feature – as if someone insisted on reminding us of natural laws.

Here is a meek little look at the top of one such construction from downtown Portland, Oregon. (It would figure that Lawrence Halprin would have been integral in its making – I have seen few landscape architects since the days of Frederick Olmstead (link in this blog) who have done more electrifying work in changing the ambiance of busy downtown areas into something more compelling and interesting for plain old people just like us.) Anyway, here are my best friends, Steve and Jody Bare, enjoying the sounds and sensations from the top of this fascinating place.

I love the insertion of those Japanese Black Pines in their solo positions smack in the midst of all this water activity. They add yet more Nature, but with their own severe and gorgeous style. Here is another perspective of this small city park, set in the middle of town. The utter placidity mixes with the severity of concrete to provide a sort of soulful splendor no one would ever have imagined could be constructed from such simple and seemingly incongruous products like cement and water. For my money, this is true art.

It’s difficult to get a true perspective on the sheer scope and size of this great water feature. One camera won’t do it justice. But here is an interesting perspective on the sheer power of it all as an extremely handsome – if aging – hillbilly checks it out and I snap his picture from above:

From the top, up some stairs and over on the top side, the noise lessens some and a different and still-interesting perspective emrges as we get to know it better. It literally cries to be explored. So – hey – we sure did!

Climbing:

Climbing:

At the top:  (The top courtyard is continually bisected by feeder streams originating back up the way and fed in the geometric planes and rectangluar streams onto the falls themselves. Severe cuts into the courtyard, studded with these gorgeous individual Pines, make it simply breath-taking to be around. Now and then you get to a place you think is perfect. This is one of those.)

This is your people-friendly park. Note those kids and even my grown-up friends taking advantage of the water like mana from Heaven on this hot Summer morning.

Here’s a few random shots from this falls:

That’s about it.

Here’s a bonus I picked up from Youtube and the Portland people:

Yes, it IS that loud down below.

Believe it or not, I often term these as alternatives to lawns.

Here is a look at a larger water feature we installed in the woods. Most of the pictures taken here were taken the day we finally finished the project. There was no hole to begin with – in fact, we felled large trees to make room for this pond and trucked off the roots. It was the same sort of forest it is now surrounded by when we began – we just claimed the territory for ourselves and the client’s pond. Note the creek of running water spilling inside from the small hill behind. This recirculated water and cleaned and oxygenated it by running over a long series of pebbles and stones in the creek.

(click all images to enlarge)

Here are a couple of different looks at the creek in the above picture. The intense shade of this project made many things possible – a larger body of water which would evaporate far less than one in the Sun allowed us to forget about the potentially nasty effects of algae as well. After all, the Sun is the primary grower of algae. It did imply some extra maintenance dealing with leaves and droppings from the local trees, but that was actually fairly easy. The main thing was how the water cleaned itself in our creek, receiving oxygen in quantities which disallowed too much algae. Honestly, in spire of the size – which was huge – this was a very straightforward project.

A bit closer up, about midway down the 50 foot creek:

Here is the look from back on the deck, looking out from the house towards our creek. The slate-like surface is actually what is called “Bluestone”, a gorgeous and richly-textured stone of more like a granite appearance. The wooden deck is visible from this perspective, and it leads out into the water at the end of this portion of the deck.

This view is from across the pond. Note the deck – it is suspended an inch above the almost always-placid water surface, made to look as close as it actually is. Later, lighting was added below the deck for an unreal but rich lighting experience at night for party-goers and just the enjoyment of the clients. It was hugely effective.

Yes, that is an island in the middle of our lake. That was easily the toughest part of the entire construction and on which caused me a sleepless night or two. Don’t do this at home!

The bridge is the link between the home and the woods across the pond. The water on this side of the bridge was very shallow and represented an effort at creating a sort of swampland/wetlands area. We planted a few wetlands plants – sedges, a bamboo – inside later which grew at a fairly astronomical rate. Little did we know we had created the perfect wetlands. We had to return and thins it by about 80%!

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Below may be my favorite perspective of all at this project. It takes advantage of the water’s placidity to offer some really fine reflections. I absolutely adored the mirror-like quality of the water.

Once again, we got very lucky in the finishing touches. The woods around us were rife with all sort of great things to put at the water’s edge, making this place look as if it had been there forever.